About Luxrender Glossy Material settings...

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About Luxrender Glossy Material settings...

Postby SolaraSolarwind » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:53 am

I was wondering, what is luxrender's equivalent setting to Fryrender's Quasi lambertian settings mentioned in the fryrender forum thread pasted below:

Chema Guerra (Author of Fryrender) says,

Hello fryers,

This post is just a small tip with a visual explanation attached to it.

As you know, fryrender vBeta1.9 will bring a new BRDF which produces better materials. This new BRDF blends mirror-like materials with lambertian materials seamlessly, producing more believable rough materials (such as metals and plastics).

Needless to say, this improvement in the material system will bring more life-like materials in general, but, as always, a good understanding of it will be crucial in order to being able to get the most out of it.

For example, one IMPORTANT thing to know is what is the exact difference between a 'quasi-lambertian' material (Roughness close to 100), and a lambertian material (Roughness = 100).

Lambertian materials (R=100) have *NO FRESNEL* effect at all. They diffuse light in all directions. They're the most rough materials possible. In fact, they're so rough that there's no such thing as a 'lambertian material' in nature. The good thing about lambertians is that they have a very simple BRDF and their lack of directionality makes them render pretty fast.

Quasi-lambertian materials (R almost 100) are slightly specular. They have a small scent of Fresnel, and are slightly reflective at grazing angles. They look pretty much like lambertians, but they're capable of reflecting the environment slightly at grazing angles. <= THIS behavior looks MUCH MORE natural to the eye than that of a lambertian material.

Basically, you could say that a lambertian material looks exactly the same no matter from what angle you're looking at it, while a quasi-lambertian becomes slightly more reflective at grazing angles.

Here's a very powerful example. Please, watch it carefully, because the highlighted differences are IMPORTANT in order to learning how to create better materials.

Image

The first frame contains lambertian materials (R=100) only.
The second frame contains quasi-lambertian materials (R=85) only.
The third frame adds some text comments to the second frame.

As you can see, the front of the red element looks more or less the same in both cases, *BUT* the right side looks TOTALLY unnatural in the first frame while it exhibits a very realistic behavior in the second one.

-- CONCLUSIONS --

1- Lambertian materials do -not- exist in nature. In the real world, the most rough materials are closer to roughness 85..95, but never 100.

2- Lambertian materials render faster, though.

So:

3- The use of quasi-lambertians is --STRONGLY RECOMMENDED-- over lambertians. Use quasi-lambertians whenever that scent of specularity is crucial. For example, -never- make lambertian walls for a building. Never make lambertian floors for a street, etc...

--

I hope that this tip will be useful, and also that the new BRDF will help you encore the realism of your scenes without any extra effort on your side.

Thanks for watching!

Last edited by chema on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total


What would be an equivalent setting in luxrender to replicate this phenomenon in Fryrender?

thankyou for your time in helping me with this issue

Sincerely

Solara
Last edited by SolaraSolarwind on Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:31 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: About Luxrender Glossy Material settings...

Postby jeanphi » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:38 am

Hi,

Fryrenders forum requires registration it seems.
However, the matte material in lux also supports the Oren Nayar model which takes into account the roughness of a diffuse surface. The sigma parameter of the model is the standard deviation of the slopes of the creases around the surface geometric normal. 0 means a smooth surface (lambertian material), and higher values will make it rougher. The effect is quite subtle but noticeable when you pay close attention, it results in a somewhat flater look of the objects.
The glossy material on the other hand simulates a matte material coated with a dielectric material like a varnish for example, or water or grease, ... Most real material aren't perfectly clean so this could apply, but they are also dusty and dust creates a diffuse reflection.
In the end, those are just tools to help you achieve a convincing look, but I'm not yet aware of any renderer able to truly model a real surface property.

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Re: About Luxrender Glossy Material settings...

Postby fanou » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:08 am

Hi,

Current models are very powerful to compute images in the entertainment, architecture or design fields.
But working in optical engineering, BRDF measurements is clearly a lack of many renderers.
I dream someday Lux will take into account such data. ;)

For your information, a short survey has been published this year in "Computer Graphics" :
http://www.siggraph.org/publications/newsletter/volume-43-number-2/a-survey-of-brdf-models-for-computer-graphics

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Re: About Luxrender Glossy Material settings...

Postby SolaraSolarwind » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:27 pm

HI everyone!

Thankyou Jeanphi and Fanou! I can better understand the effects glossiness and matte material.

Also, Sorry about the link, I forgot that you had to register, so I've updated this thread by pasting Chema's post instead of using the link. The first post of this thread now shows Chema's post with the picture example he supplied. I hope will will better explain my question on whether there is a setting in luxrender that best matches Fryrender's Quasi Lambertian setting.

Also, it seems that Maxwell is doing something interesting with regard to realistic modeling of surface interaction with light. They're SSS material is able to become translucent as glass, or solid as matter and/or glossy Material.


Thankyou

Sincerely

Solara
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Re: About Luxrender Glossy Material settings...

Postby jeanphi » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:48 am

Hi,

I'm not completely convinced by Chema Guerra's explanation as lambertian behaviour doesn't only come from surface roughness (at least not roughness at the scale it is usually considered), the better proof is that the Oren-Nayar model is for rough lambertian surfaces and it tries to model some real world materials.
In Lux you can have the same effect than mentioned by using a glossy material with a very faint specular component and low roughness exponent, but you can also use the Oren-Nayar model that gives you some backscattering effects as well as an increased reflectivity at grazing angles.

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Re: About Luxrender Glossy Material settings...

Postby psychotron » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:28 am

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Re: About Luxrender Glossy Material settings...

Postby SolaraSolarwind » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:19 am

oh my! That is very interesting! I must take a look at that article all of you brought up some very good points!
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