LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

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Re: LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

Postby SATtva » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:21 am

A-man wrote:Luxrender is also very complicated to use, if it is as slow as you are saying, you are doing something VERY wrong.

IIRC the original image was ultra-highres for poster printing, so this is more or less an expected time to render such a scene (although i don't know the hardware specs that were used).

ThortonJ:
As J said, comparing Lux to Vray (an extremely optimized biased non-physical renderer) is a bullshit argument, and with another unbiased physical engine the rendering speed will be comparable to Lux. If you wish to pursue the unbiased way, you have to invest in hardware -- most professional users here have entire rendering clusters in their disposal, but acquiring more power from Amazon EC2 or other cloud providers is always an option. It's not like that specifically with Lux -- rendering highres in unbiased physical engine on just one machine is always a multi-day endeavour regardless of the engine used. (However if you're rendering for printing, there is absolutely no need to wait for noise-free result, it's usually enough a half or even a quarter of noise-free SPP as the remaining noise will interpolate on the physical medium during printing.)
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Re: LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

Postby ThorntonJ » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:06 am

SATtva wrote:
A-man wrote:Luxrender is also very complicated to use, if it is as slow as you are saying, you are doing something VERY wrong.

IIRC the original image was ultra-highres for poster printing, so this is more or less an expected time to render such a scene (although i don't know the hardware specs that were used).

ThortonJ:
As J said, comparing Lux to Vray (an extremely optimized biased non-physical renderer) is a bullshit argument, and with another unbiased physical engine the rendering speed will be comparable to Lux. If you wish to pursue the unbiased way, you have to invest in hardware -- most professional users here have entire rendering clusters in their disposal, but acquiring more power from Amazon EC2 or other cloud providers is always an option. It's not like that specifically with Lux -- rendering highres in unbiased physical engine on just one machine is always a multi-day endeavour regardless of the engine used. (However if you're rendering for printing, there is absolutely no need to wait for noise-free result, it's usually enough a half or even a quarter of noise-free SPP as the remaining noise will interpolate on the physical medium during printing.)

alright, ill agree, v was a bad example, because you are right, its not an unbiased renderer. I would like to be clear im not bashing devs, and i proceed to believe that fear of faster technolagy, not to replace but in addition to is stupid. i said i was backing off and you all proceed to say that there is no room for a cuda fanboy here nor starting flame wars... how am i starting a flame war if i am backing off. not to mention, i am far from a cuda fanboy, im a fanboy of what works, and the numbers say cuda is faster. Im not bashing ANYBODY, im pointing out that you have an in. an operteunity to take one of the most brilliant renderers i have ever seen not to mention for free, to the next level. My uncle who has been in the navy all his live tought me never to settle when i was younger. not to say you need to do everything, but letting yourself fall behind because what you set out to do is good enough is never an option. the goal is to go above and beyond your goals. I know your focus is on the end result, not howfast you get there, but it wont matter if it is insufferably slow. I deffend lux left and right to other designers because i know how powerful it is, but i do need something faster.

Im preparing for college, and my student loans arent gonna pay for more than my new computer in addition to my masters degree, and i plan on buying PRMan once im in school... so to those of you who have never met me (all of you) and honestly believe i am in fact a cuda fan boy, you wont have to worry about me here any longer.

that poster print i never rendered full size. never got it past half size, and i farmed to 3PCs. turned off all fire fly rej, all other things that would slow it down, and even after 9 days i had shitty results. the only conclusion i can draw is too much white and bright.

I say one last time. I AM BACKING OFF, but thats my 2 cents. if you dont like my input fine, but to say there is no room for it in an open source comunity is just as disrespectful to others in my opinion. im not bashing your devs, and i have continuously said they did a fucking fantastic job... so dont mistake my severe criticism as disrespect towards the developers, its to those of you who claim im a fan boy but argue more vigerously than me about OCL and CPU rendering; its to those of you who are more intent on fighting my first statement which did not have a rude undertone than just saying to me in the first place that that is not your intention, and suggesting alternatives to me; its is to those of you who would rather be a jack ass about something because you dont like the suggestion than just saying so, and dont say you did, because you gave me every excuse as to why cuda is bad, not why you DO chose OCL.

AGAIN, incase the 2nd time wasnt enough. im out. ill go back to bitching on forum threads about why its going so slow, and i can watch somebody else with a crappier rig pass me up in 30 seconds... i was just trying to make a point that like it or not you guys seem not to have given any real consideration into. yeah, i know saying it will be the death of lux was over the top, but so is saying things like a driver/hardware that honest hard working people put a lot of work into has no place in an open source community when it is so readily available to you.

If anyone wants to reply to this fine, and ill proceed to tell you i was done and im not the one dragging this out. dont treat me like im the one suggesting somethng totally outrageous or that i was in the wrong for making a legitimate point.

again, im sry if this, even my first comment came across disrespectful to devs, but you all shot that down, teeth and nails, without even a second look. Honestly i do have a lot of respect for you all so arguing about this is extreemly difficult. I dont like when people are closed minded. cant do it. im sorry i got defensive. know that saying things like calling me a fanboy is just as much bullshit as saying that my argument that it would benefit lux to considder cuda is bull. If i affended any devs, which im like 90% sure i have, im sorry it was taken the wrong way. i dont like dealing with closed minded people which is why i dont like talking to devs in most cases. my father is a web developer of about 20 years couple years either direction give or take. i deal with devs all the time, and i HATE it with a burning fiery pasison, but im involved enough that its hard not to speak up. again, sorry that i KNOW that came out badly.
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Re: LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

Postby Pilchard123 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:46 am

ThorntonJ wrote:the goal is to go above and beyond your goals


Sounds like you'll get some nasty stack overflows there :P
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Re: LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

Postby zeealpal » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:53 am

Perhaps it is where you live, or the way your English is written, but all of your posts, even the last one where you are 'backing off' have an aggressive tone, and appear disrespectful.

The phrasing you used also makes it appear that you are the victim of an unjustified and harsh criticism, when what you said appeared as above (aggressive, attacking, negative etc...) could have caused offense to others.

Perhaps more caution, proof reading and looking at the tone of your text would be advised, as you can cause a lot of insult to people.
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Re: LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

Postby jeanphi » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:57 am

Hi,

I think you've not fully grasped my argument: nVidia is making its OpenCL implementation slow to market CUDA as faster than OpenCL. However there was a time when that was not the case and CUDA/OpenCL speed was roughly on par with nVidia hardware. So you should really tell nVidia that you want an acceptable OpenCL solution with their hardware. They are perfectly capable of doing it. We don't have extensible resources to develop LuxRender so we will always favour standards over proprietary solutions. Our LuxMark benchmark becoming a kind of standard to evaluate GPU performance, nVidia should better care about OpenCL support or they might loose market share, its up to them.

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Re: LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

Postby Lord Crc » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:14 am

Jeez guys, chill out. It's summer, go out, have a nice bbq in the rain (or sun, if you have some).

There are no silver bullets when it comes to software development.

CUDA is powerful yes, but primarily because it's easier to write for the developers. The speed difference between CUDA and OpenCL is 90% artificial, and is the result of NVIDIA's business decisions.

However there's one thing I really take issue with:

was just trying to make a point that like it or not you guys seem not to have given any real consideration into


This is plain wrong.

[...] you gave me every excuse as to why cuda is bad, not why you DO chose OCL

We did consider the options available at the time. And to be honest, it was a pretty easy decision: CUDA works on one platform, OpenCL worked on three, and will work on more in the future... Intel Phi has OpenCL support for example, but no CUDA support.

Given that we're basically a handful of guys working spare-time only on this, we could not afford to pick both. At the time NVIDIA was improving their OpenCL implementation, and it was natural to expect them to bring it close to CUDA. Only lately have they reduced the OpenCL performance on consumer cards, relative to CUDA.

So yeah, it was easy to pick OpenCL: it would work on a lot of platforms, it's an open standard so we were not vendor locked, and at the time we made the decision NVIDIA was improving their OpenCL performance, not degrading it.

That said, if you find something else that suits your needs, use it! LuxRender was never meant to be everything to everyone.
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Re: LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

Postby zeealpal » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:19 am

Lord Crc wrote:...chill out. It's summer, go out, have a nice bbq in the rain (or sun, if you have some).


If only, its winter for me, and freezing too :(
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Re: LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

Postby Lord Crc » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:33 am

zeealpal wrote:If only, its winter for me, and freezing too :(


No excuse not to have a bbq :P I've been bbq'ing in -10C, and it was awesome.
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Re: LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

Postby J the Ninja » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:17 am

Lord Crc wrote:
zeealpal wrote:If only, its winter for me, and freezing too :(


No excuse not to have a bbq :P I've been bbq'ing in -10C, and it was awesome.


Silly vikings. :P
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Re: LuxRender v1.0RC1 release

Postby SATtva » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:36 am

:lol:
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